Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

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James P
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Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by James P »

The only thing left to do before starting my rebuilt engine is to fill the cooling system. About 30 seconds into the filling process, it all goes pear-shaped when I see coolant dripping from the hole where the steel coolant pipe plugs into the casing below the left-hand cylinder...bugger :( !
So...drain the residual coolant, drain the gearbox oil, remove the side casing and then remove the coolant pipe for inspection.

On initial installation, I'd used a little high-vacuum grease to lubricate the O-rings (to aid in sealing and make sure they wouldn't get stuck and deform when plugging in the coolant pipe). The coolant pipe itself had been in near pristine condition, apart from the original plated exterior finish being a bit patchy, with just a hint of corrosion. So as to not look out-of-place with the bead-blasted and burnished cases, I'd painted the coolant pipe with black POR-15 paint, which gives a smooth hard finish.

On inspecting all the components, everything looks good. The O-ring is not broken or twisted. The socket in the casing is clean - no scores or other damage. The coolant pipe is not damaged or deformed and the O-ring grooves are smooth. There is no sign of any grit or swarf which may have prevented the O-ring in question from sealing.
Although it should make no difference, the O-rings are the correct genuine (and new) Kawasaki parts (EDIT: or so I thought!). When removed from their bag, they were supple - not hard or cracked.

Since the definition of insanity is to try exactly the same thing again and expect a different result, I decide to use a greater helping of high-vacuum grease on reassembly. To prevent wasting another side casing gasket if it doesn't work, I just refit the side casing and nip up four of the screws to hold it in place (if it works, I can just drain the coolant, fit a new gasket and then refill).
There is some perceptible (but smooth) resistance as the pipe is plugged into position, suggesting that the O-rings are sealing properly.
This time, I get to the stage where the whole system is full of coolant and no sign of any leaks! I decide to leave it for a while, to make sure it isn't going to start leaking again.
Imagine my dismay when, about 20 minutes later, coolant begins to drip from the same place! Oh well - time for a rethink.

I should mention that this engine had been running when I got the bike, with no coolant leaks! It is a low-mileage B1 and it looks as if the engine had never been split. I didn't find anything untoward when dismantling. I had been sorely tempted to run it as it was, but had decided instead to check out the internals and replace the pistons, which were surely the originals.

I rummage through my engine spares and find three coolant pipes. I pick the least cruddy one and give it a wipe off in preparation for use. Despite being a little cruddy, it is not damaged and the O-ring grooves are clean and smooth. I fit some new O-rings, with just a little high-vacuum grease to aid fitting and sealing. Again, it plugs into position nicely.
On filling the system with coolant, I get the same result as the first time, although it is now the hole beneath the right-hand cylinder that is leaking!

I drain the residual coolant, dismantle the side casing and remove the coolant pipe (again!). Re-inspection of the sockets in the casing reveals no damage or any indication why they should leak. The wet bead-blasting process which was used on the casing is very gentle - it won't even take paint off unless the nozzle is concentrated in one place for a long time. I therefore disregard this aspect as a likely cause of the problem.

Now, I decide to make some measurements. Using my painted coolant pipe and also the least-cruddy spare one, with combinations of old and new genuine O-rings, as well as new pattern O-rings, the outside diameters of the various O-rings when seated in the grooves are all within about 0.2mm of each other. None of the plug sections of the two pipes look oval - their roundness is confirmed by measuring the outside diameters at various points with O-rings fitted.

The coolant pipe barely rates a mention in the workshop manual. I assume therefore that there is no special procedure for fitting it. Has anybody else had similar trouble?

Have my new O-rings shrunk?? Do I need special oversize ones?? Should I stick to air-cooled bikes??

In the absence of definite advice, my next attempt will involve Silastic instead of grease when fitting. Surely that will work...won't it :? ? Suggestions welcome.

Regards,
James
Last edited by James P on Fri May 01, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
mellorp
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by mellorp »

If the clips aren't tight it will leak for fun. I'm a plumber I should know. I've had "light fittings" reported as leaking water along with other weird and wonderful descriptions of leaks. It's about finding the source

To find the exact point of failure fill the system (use water it's cheaper) then use dry tissue paper starting at the highest point to locate exactly where the coolant is leaking from.

My guess is a loose clip allowing coolant to run unseen to the lowest point before showing as a leak.

Once you are leak free drain it and add your coolant/antifreeze

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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by JanBros »

did you check that the distance between the centres of the 2 pipes for the cylinders are exactly the same as the centres on the cases ?
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James P
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by James P »

mellorp wrote:My guess is a loose clip allowing coolant to run unseen to the lowest point before showing as a leak.
Thanks for the suggestion, although I have satisfied myself that no clipped joints are leaking. I could see the coolant dripping from the coolant pipe's plug-in joint just below the left-hand cylinder (and then the right-hand one when I tried the spare coolant pipe :( ). There was no mistaking the source, as the fluorescent green coolant was easy to see - it couldn't have been leaking from anywhere else.
JanBros wrote:did you check that the distance between the centres of the 2 pipes for the cylinders are exactly the same as the centres on the cases ?
I didn't make an accurate measurement Jan, but both coolant pipes appeared to be undamaged and not deformed. When installing, they matched the centres on the casing and they each plugged into position fairly easily (only slight resistance from the O-rings, which seemed normal). I didn't have to use any more force than I would expect when installing either of the coolant pipes and they aligned OK with the pump housing in the side casing.

Should I be using "Kawasaki Bond" on the O-rings??? Before trying this (or Silastic) to seal the joints, I might try finding some slightly oversize O-rings (thicker section) to see if an improvement can be made.

Thanks for the replies so far - any further advice or suggestion welcome!

Regards,
James
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by DougB »

I've had them leak once so I rebuilt the whole set up with new o-rings (genuine but as you say I doubt that makes a difference really) and since then always installed them using silicone sealant to help them slide in and then seal, never had a leak since thankfully.
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by JanBros »

seem to remember I had a similar problem once.

using silicone sealant is an option. seem to remember I also putted extra O-rings (thinner ones because they can not fit in the groove) on the pipe.
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by SP_BOTT »

I'd be dumping the genuine O-rings and fitting as fat an O-ring as possible, It could be a case of wrong size rubber, a bit like the YPVS orange O-rings, genuine or not, there is no way they will fit nowadays.
Should be cheap enough to try, you can get a big kit for a fiver??
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by 500bernie »

A smear of silicon during assembly will sort it out :)
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James P
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Re: Coolant leak - what am I doing wrong??

Post by James P »

OK...I've finally figured out what the problem is!

Before I spill the beans though; I went to the O-ring shop today and bought some oversize O-rings (14mm ID, 3mm section). These looked promising at first, but there was no way I could plug the coolant pipe in - the oversize O-rings were just too thick (even with grease to aid fitting).

I made a few more measurements and guess what? I THOUGHT I had fitted genuine O-rings, but it turned out I'd fitted the O-rings from a pattern gasket set...they are too small!
I was a little surprised, because I had felt some resistance when plugging in the coolant pipe, suggesting that the O-rings were sealing properly. Also, only one of the two sockets had leaked, which I still can't explain.
When I had previously compared what I had thought were genuine O-rings with the pattern ones, they were identical. However, I was actually comparing two sets of pattern O-rings :oops: !

The genuine O-rings (Part No. 670B2014) are 14mm ID, 2.5mm section.
The O-rings from the pattern gaskets set(s) are 12mm ID, 2.5mm section - no wonder it leaked :roll: .

The larger O-ring (for the part of the coolant pipe which plugs into the pump housing) in the pattern gasket set is the correct size though (16mm ID, 2.5mm section) - the same as the genuine O-ring (Part No. 670B2016).

Anyway...proper O-rings fitted, cooling system filled - no leaks! I got the engine started, but after a few minutes noticed a few drops of coolant slowly weeping from the pump housing gasket :( . This was not too much of a surprise, as the side casing had been on and off about 10 times while I was sorting out the O-ring issue. I drained the coolant (again :roll: ), cleaned up the gasket faces and fitted a new gasket with Silastic applied. Once it has cured, I'll try again!

Thanks to those who have shared their own experiences and opinions. The moral of this story is...CHECK THE SIZES OF THE O-RINGS IN PATTERN GASKET SETS!

Regards,
James
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